*Editor’s Note: This is the second in our series,
“Guest Writers” written for Zagaholic by Tim Mackin. I have known him for
several years. He loves the Zags and bleeds red & blue like most of us. The
season ending loss to Wichita
State
By Tim Mackin-
I want to start by quoting Murray Kempton: “Critics are those who ride down the hill after the
battle has been fought to shoot the wounded."
That being said, I will point out that Gonzaga was not
beaten by a better team. We simply did not play our game, and we didn't look
like we wanted to be there anymore.
Another set of stats I found: Davidson 50% ('08), North
Carolina 58% ('09), Syracuse 48% ('10), BYU 50% ('11), Ohio State 38% ('12),
and Wichita St 50% ('13).
In case you were wondering (though most of you have
probably guessed it), those were the 3pt percentages of the last six teams to
dispatch the Zags from the tournament. I thought there was something different
about this team... I really did... but apparently the lesson still has not been
learned. Gonzaga had everything it took to get over the hill. We even had a
path paved in gold. But, we buckled under pressure (yet again) when it all was
put on the line. I can sit here and point fingers all I want, I know I haven't
played the game at this level... but something has to be done if we expect to
accomplish anything more than what we have already.
At some point, success has to stop being measured by
the amount of times we consecutively win our (admittedly weak) conference
title. At some point, success has to stop being measured simply by the idea
that we made it to the tournament. Ten years ago, that was all well and good.
We were still in the process of building and establishing our program. Now, as ESPN's Myron Medcalf recently put it, "This is a Gonzaga squad that's spent nearly 15
years climbing college basketball's Mount Everest .
And each time it's come close enough to see the summit, the Zags have not
scaled that mountain." Again, as he put it, "Gonzaga lost more than
just a game..."We lost the one thing this program has been trying to
obtain for many years: Respect.
Sure, we crossed a few more things off the
bucket list this year: We reached our first #1 seed in the NCAA Tournament, first
#1 ranking in the AP, #1 in ESPN/USA Today, #1 ranking in the Coaches Poll, as
well as the most wins in a season for the first time in school history. Unfortunately,
we all know that isn't enough anymore. It can't be enough. Gonzaga lost its
respect this last weekend from everyone, even its fans, and that includes me.
Why? Well, to quote Medcalf again, "At some point we're going to stop
being surprised."
I believed in my Zags this year. I love 'em to death.
Quite frankly, that metaphor couldn't be any more applicable. They killed me
this year. They lost the respect they fought so hard for. And it will be a long
time before they earn it back unless they simply put some warm clothes on, grab
the oxygen tank, the ice picks, and start climbing the mountain. Like I said,
just getting there isn't enough anymore. The critics are as loud as ever,
especially after flopping the way the Zags did on Saturday. I'm not going to go
so far as to say the Zags didn't want it. However, they did let the other team
want it more than them. I haven't seen such an atrocious effort on perimeter
defense in a long time and, once again, it sealed their fate.
The sad thing is, it's not like they couldn't defend the three. They
played some of the best defense I have ever seen from a Gonzaga team all year. Other Gonzaga teams simply "couldn't" guard the three. This team just
didn't, plain and simple.
I hate to see Hart and Harris go out like this. Hart
played a hell of a game garnering 14 boards. I've never seen him crash the
offensive glass like he did with such determination. Harris... he has been a
nugget-in-the-mud ever since he got here. He had all the potential in the
world, and he will leave Gonzaga as one of its all-time greats. Unfortunately,
there is a lesson to learn from them too... because, in the five years they
were Zags, they didn't learn their lesson either. I came to see Hart as a
ruthless perimeter defender. Hands always up, feet moving. Always making sure
he was seeing the whole court above and behind him so he could get the best
defensive position of anyone else out there. On Saturday... he looked on his
heels and a half-step slow, his hands were at his sides when his guy faced him
up (and coincidentally shot over Hart and buried it... from the perimeter).
Harris... well, he laid an egg. All the work he had put in came down to what
his team, and especially he himself, could do in this tournament. He was
consistently out-worked by his opponents, both from Southern and Wichita St.
Shots I came accustomed to seeing him make in the latter part of this season,
and honestly made me a believer that he was capable of finishing through
contact... he didn't make them. He played at the rim... not above it.
Any coach will tell you, from high school forward, that
if you play the post position and you're within 5-7ft of the basket and you
take a shot... it doesn't matter how hard they foul you. You damn-well better
make it. Harris didn't deliver. He got blocked. He got fouled and missed. Or,
he simply missed on his own, even with little-to-no contact.
Gonzaga made me and the rest of the nation, a believer
throughout the course of the season simply because they had the pieces and
played like they deserved it. When it came time to prove it, they didn't...
and, in that, they made enormous skeptics out of all of us. Like I said, I love
my Zags. I will never stop being a fan... but this is called losing faith in
your program. They simply have not learned. Whenever they had a shot, they
folded. And, I will admit, I just can't do it. I can't give them my best
anymore until they prove to me, a fan, that they are capable of proving to
everyone, and most importantly themselves, that they can indeed do it.
I really hope Olynyk stays. I mean, it's unlikely as he
has done enough to establish himself as a lottery pick and make a lot of money.
He's graduated. But, in my mind, he still has something to prove. He didn't
have the greatest tournament, either. A few key fundamental flaws in his game
were exposed by his opponents and, in my opinion, he still has some work to do
to fix that up and polish the edges. Even more important, though, is that he
knows they could have done better. The competitor in me simply would not have
believed what we did this season, or what I accomplished on my own, was enough.
I would want more. I would want that trophy.
Losing Hart and Harris will
hurt... they can't be replaced. There is still enough to come back with and
accomplish more next season. Word has it there will be a three-guy who is
actually a complete player. We have another post coming in. Dower and Karno
will only get better over the off-season, as well. And we have a backcourt with
two years of tournament experience (albeit and disappointment) coming back. If
I were Kelly... I would stay for the sole purpose of doing the one thing he and
the rest of Gonzaga has yet to do: Win a National Championship.
But, alas, I'm going to remain skeptical. I'm not going
to believe until they prove to everyone and to themselves that they have what
it takes to reach the top of the mountain... which they do. But, even more
importantly, they have to prove to everyone that they want it more than the
other guy. I have been a Zags fan my whole life... and I have not seen a team
that has wanted it more in 15 years. 15 YEARS! We have to go all the way back
to that magical run of '99 just to find a team that wanted it more than their
opponent. And, next closest to that, we have to go back to '04 just to find a
team even remotely close to the sort of mentality the '99 team had when we lost
in 2OT to Arizona on a missed last-second 12-footer.
This program has been built over a long time... Few and
Co have to prove that they are not out there just to continue tournament
consistency (in the worst way) anymore... they are out there to win
championships.
I say to Coach Few: You have a lot left to prove. Are you a good coach,
or a great one? Let me tell you, the great ones find a way to work with what
they have and still win championships. You've had two great opportunities and
the team fell through both times. It's your responsibility to keep them
motivated, to keep them wanting more. So far, you're on the ropes, because you
haven't gotten the job done.
To the team: Are you going to learn? Are you going to
look through the history books and realize that we have gotten used to seeing
you roll through the conference, finish the season ranked, and dance for a
couple games? Well, that's not enough anymore. Every NCAA athlete dreams of
winning a National Championship. However, those that DO actually go out and
accomplish such a feat because they don't let the other guy want it more than
them. Year-after-year... we have seen the teams of this program let the other
guy want it more. That's not going to get it done. You have to want it bad
enough to fight to the very bitter end for it. You have to work harder, train
harder, and play harder. You have to put on a show night-in and night-out, and prove that you won't play anything other than your A game.
In other words... teams like UConn and the Zags in '99,
Zona in '04, UCLA in '06, and now even Wichita St Florida Gulf
Coast
So, Zags... Do you have it in you to want it more than
the other guy? If so, you're going to have to prove it.
To quote Medcalf again, "The problem, however, is
that every time you push play on Gonzaga's season, it ends with the same
disappointing scene."
Prove to all of us that you can change that. Until
then, great season, and put in the work this off-season. We will be here next
November to see what you got…
38 comments:
Let me just say, despite what all the GU delusional homers will insist is success....Winning the WCC and flaming out in the tournament is not it. They are the co-dependents of the program who seems to be addicted to "lil engine dat could" pills....always telling them oh this is fine! this is what is best! everyone else is just haters!, no one good recruits will come to GU...and on and on...blah blah...loser speak....blah.
anyway....
I use to think that GU JUST had a perception problem...until this year. The perception was shattered, as they rose to #1 in the polls and were awarded a #1 seed. Now they have flamed out yet again. This time with more talent and chemistry then any other team during this run has had. In addition, they were given an easier path to a FF. There was no disrespect from the Powers that be this year. And yet for all of that, the GU team went down again. Ensuring that Harris, would never see the S16. That once again, despite the respect given, finally, by the media and the committee...GU got owned in the first weekend.
Hell! GU played better last year with less talent!
Ultimately you have to come to one basic conclusion. Return to the constant and stop blaming all the variables.
Stop perpetuating the lie that only Mark Few could do what has been done at GU.
Stop perpetuating the lie that kids don't want to come to Spokane.
Stop insisting that winning the 10th ranked RPI conference is a great achievement. It isn't.
Stop insisting no coach would come to GU. Dumb argument. The good coach is already there. His name is Tommy Lloyd and he is a hell of a coach and recruiter.
Face facts. Mark Few has become a fat cat living off the minor successes of the WCC and the perception that because GU plays tough non-conf he has a commitment to winning it all. He doesn't. He cares more about fly fishing than Basketball.
I don't know of any coach that makes more excuses or plays up terrible competition more in an effort to make himself and the team's performance appear good than Mark Few.
This teams issue is not guarding the three. It is not about effort. It is about the culture of the program. It is one in which failure is excused, no clear cut tradition is exemplified and the coach refuses to take any accountability for his poor coaching and inability to make decisions in game time situations.
Also, great write up!
Well Written article, we have such great wordsmiths in our community! Hope to see more from you soon!
Thanks a ton Tim, for putting your thoughts down like this. Most of us can appreciate the time, and effort, that it takes.
I personally, was having a difficult time moving past the pain,and dealing with how the season ended. Didn't feel like writing much of anything.
I couldn't bring myself out of my gloom. Then, I read what you wrote...and it actually helped me move a little bit forward. And for that, I thank you.
This was a tough one indeed but I am hopeful that the coming days will bring a renewal in my passion for all things Zag.
The unexpected, and sudden ending to the promising season still hurts....a lot. Maybe more than anything I've associated with my Zag experience over the years. Will I get over it? I believe so. It's just still so fresh that it makes it hard to look to the future.
But as fans we will rise above the ashes like a Phoenix... and brighter days will come. This I am sure of.
GOOOOOOO ZAGS!!~
Couple of minor details...
The classic Arizona double OT game you refer to was played in March 2003, not '04 as you state. '04 was undoubtedly worse when the Zags, led by Blake Stepp, completely folded as a 2 seed against Nevada on essentially a home court at Key Arena.
Also, ESPN no longer participates in the USA Today poll, it's just the USA Today Coaches Poll.
Great article Tim! Perfectly summed up my frustrations with this year's team (including the frustrating 3 point defense numbers). While I'm incredibly frustrated with Coach Few, I don't know that we have any better options out there. Bruce Pearl? I mean, I love the guy but I think I'm the only one. I think you're absolutely right: this team quit and didn't keep up the fight when they found that the Shockers came out swinging. Olynyk had to McGuyver (did I spell that right?) his shots to get them to fall while Harris settled for getting blocked at the rim over and over again on his last collegiate game. I hate to question my team, but I have to say it: This was our shot. This was it. We won't get a better draw in another decade or two. We would have faced a THIRTEEN seed in the sweet sixteen. We played a team that got hot from three and, rather than adjust to it, we kept... doubling the post? Why? They don't have anyone who can beat us down low, and if they did, make them do it before we sell out to stop it.
This doesn't come down to any one thing we could have done, though having GBJ late in the game would have been awful nice. It basically comes down to our critics being proven right. This was our chance to shut EVERYONE up and rather than grab it by the throat we fell apart. It was embarrassing. This won't keep me from being a big Zag fan, but it will certainly keep me from caring as deeply about the next couple years. This one hurt. I was talking to a friend of mine about our team and I said something like "if they're not going to take this seriously, why should I?"
There is something else this Gonzaga program has never accomplished. An in game adjustment... Few never makes them.
So now rumors abound that Ray Giacoletti and Donny Daniels might be leaving the Zags coaching staff.
I remember Coach Few saying the main reason Gonzaga has been able to maintain at this level was the continuity of the staff. Keeping everyone together. He elaborated that he was lucky in that respect.
So now what... Have we reached our peak? And now the slide begins?
We face the potential of losing 1/2 of our front line (Harris & Olynyk) our strength next season, as well as Hart and Landry.
Now throw in a potential loss of Assistant Coaches Giacoletti and Daniels...I am very nervous to say the least.
Sure, we could get better coaches, maybe an infusion of new thinking would be nice. We might land some yet to be unknown BIG that will be able to step right in next year.....but after this seasons colossal collapse vs. Wichita State, I would be lying if I said I was excited about these possibilities.
Hate to be so negative but.....
I was thinking about the irony of Tim's article title "Gonzaga Needs to Make a Change"...it may very well be that Gonzaga will be making changes whether it needs to or not. *sigh
And yes, I agree with P-Hole....Few has never been very good at making in game adjustments (see: UCLA collapse).
Now I feel guilty for being negative but DAMMIT this was the year. Not next year or last year or any other year. It was set up perfectly, we should have sleep walked into the Elite 8....But Oh No....*poof* up in flames.
I'm with you all the way Gaz... this was it and we blew it.
The coaching staff rumors are troubling, mostly because Daniels is a great california recruiter (something we will always need). Giacoletti was supposed to help us out with our defense but that never really happened now. Losing two experienced coaches like that can disrupt a team, but getting some new blood could be crucial. I would be thrilled if Few went out and got a young defensive mind and gave him the keys to our D. I don't think it will happen, but if it did we may find ourselves with at least some idea of how to defend the three point shot and the pick and roll ("hedging hard every time" or "switch every time" hasn't trickled down to all the players yet).
Yes, the 'Zona game was '03. And yes, Few has demonstrated a lack of knowledge in making late-game adjustments. I do not think the problem so much is in the program as a whole. It is in the team itself. All the pieces were there this year, yet they did not get it done. I hate to say it, but I agree in that we may have blown the best shot we will ever get at making it to the Final Four. I was stuck between titling the article "This Zag Fan has had Enough" and the current one. The truth is, it never had a title in the first place. I posted it on another forum a day or two after the game. It is, more or less, ranting in nature. But, these are problems that need to be addressed in the Gonzaga Basketball community. This sort of make it and bow out mentality is not good enough anymore. The idea that a couple of coaches may be leaving is difficult to overcome. In many ways, those are bigger losses than the players. However, if Olynyk stays and we at least keep a core bunch of our coaching staff, it may not be all that bad. Either way, something has to be done. In my opinion, Mike Roth needs to sit Few down and say that this stuff just isn't going to cut it anymore...
I've had a few hours to cool off and maybe things aren't so bad after all. We will still have a pretty good team next year.
Truthfully, I never cared much for Giacoleti, but I have always liked Daniels. I feel he opens up the Cali market for recruits we wouldn't otherewise have a shot at. Some feel that he was the straw that tipped GBJ into being a Zag. He also is supposed to be the big man specialist and he was instrumental in helping develope KO.
But......maybe we need to shake things up. Change can be good. Anything would be better than what happened vs. Wichita State and almost vs Southern.
Maybe we can write some of it off as the year of parity too. The West region was littered with upsets, the Zags being one of them. But still....everything seemed to be lined up sooooo well!
Tim...I liked your title. It may prove to be somewhat prophetic, lol.
Thanks again for putting your feelings down. I had not brought myself out my my depression enough to write anything. And it was beginning to look like nobody else around here had shaken the darkness enough to do much of anything....so you helped in the healing process.
And it's all good. They are your opinions and you are entitled to them, no matttr if everyone, or nobody agrees.
GO ZAGS!!~
My,
You guys are starting to sound like Yankees fans.
Finish with the best record in school history and #1 in the polls but that isn't good enough?
I wish we had done better in the tournament too. I too don't understand why we get torched from 3 (GB have anything to do with this? Not Few's fault there is it?) and I too felt our kids were playing on their heels in both tournament games. They did not play like they were the aggressor.
It is this last point that troubles me the most. Why or why were these kids so tentative? They need to believe they are the big dogs and they clearly lacked that belief for two games.
Just the same:
Get a grip! Tomorrow the sun will rise, the birds will sing, God will be in his heaven and all will be well in the world.
Kelly should go pro -- no doubt in my mind. That said, nothing would make me happier than for him to stay another year.
We have the nucleus for a very good team next year. Time to turn the page and move on.
I know I have Masochistic tendencies (Oriole Fan, Dolphin Fan, OU Sooner Football fan). I know what it is to get close over and over and over and seldom if ever make it.
I also know that getting the championship requires all the planets to align and the team has to catch lightning in a bottle. And for two weeks, things cannot be better. Then you are right back in the soup with everyone else.
Either way, PLAY ON!!
mjc
Quid,
Yes, I suppose things could be worse and some of us (me) are acting a bit like babies...But I thought we were SOOOOO CLOSE! And we just cannot seem to go any higher than the round of 32, it's frustrating!!
But today, I feel better. Decided to put the gun down, got off hold with the suicide prevention line, flushed the Prozac, and I am actually starting to get excited about next year.
Nunoz and Coleman will be available, can't wait to get a look at them in game situations. Also looking forward to seeing who steps up and surprises. Will it be Karnowski? Dranginis? Bell?
St. Mary's looks to be weaker with Delly finally gone (was he there for 10 years?) and BYU looks to be weaker, so we might still roll through the WCC, have a nice record and win a game in the tourney.
Who knows....maybe we get a recruit that can step into the front line and be a force. And, maybe KO stays?
So yeah....things are starting to feel a bit more bearable and I do see a wee glint of sunshine out today.
Heck, I might even put on a Zag T in a week or so. :-)
St. Marys without Delli and down two scholarships is going to be devastated for a couple years -- in my estimation. Really too bad, I don't love St. Marys but you have to admit they did a lot to advance the perception of the WCC the last 5 odd years.
Few has outcoached many teams over the years. He is a solid, ethical, and respected guy (by the players and his fellow coaches). I guess you all would rather have Calipari, or Bennett, or Clahoun etc. etc.
Look at how many players come back and stay involved. I'd rather have a team that doesn't make the final four than one with selfish players, greedy coaches and sleazy recruiting methods. We lost. it's frustrating. Get over it. Quit blaming the best coach Gonzaga has ever had- a coach many high majors would hire today if they could.
Lots of reasons we lost to WS. If coaching was one of them, it was less than 5% of the problem:
Bell got hurt... Pangos is not a good defender... Olynyk was exposed as having only a few inside moves.... Harris was off his game... Refs did not call the inside fouls we normally get... Stockton stepping on the inbound line at the critical time hurt a lot... Barham and Draganis did not step in and defend like they were supposed to... Dower and Krakowski contributed little to nothing.
After accounting for all these shortcomings, then maybe you can mention coaching.
We had a good run, and we will have a very good team next year, whether Kelly comes back or not (I hope he does!).
Go Zags!
Long post coming...
Post 1 of 2: So, I have read the responses to this article on here as well as the GU Basketball Forums via the Spokesman site. Hopefully, this reply can make it over there.
Everyone has an opinion that they are certainly entitled to. I cannot fault them for having one, nor can I fault myself for having my own. I could have easily just gone off on the Zags immediately after the game. Instead, I didn't. I took the time to gather myself and examine what I saw happen throughout.
Before people start questioning my credentials as an athlete, let me just point out that I was a four-year varsity participant and starter when I played in high school as an undersized forward. Most Spokesman customers, in fact, have likely seen my face in the Sports Section once or twice and chances are I may have coached your kid or grandkid while they participated at NBC Camps. The point about being 6'7 and shoot within 5-7ft of the basket merely implies that you should be playing above the rim, not at it (as Harris was, unfortunately). I have seen many a player end up running lines for missing what are dubbed "lay-ins."
Like I said, the piece is opinionated and people are entitled to their own opinion on it. I can't keep ya from thinking what you think. It's your brain. There are things that people ought to start thinking about, though:
-What is so great about making the tournament for so many consecutive years, only to bow out after winning a couple of games max? Gonzaga hasn't won more than 2 games since '99. Considering the teams that we have had since then, one would think that we might have made the Elite Eight at least one more time.
-Who allows a team to shoot 28 threes, regardless of whether or not the team gets hot, when the team on defense has a history of being beaten by the three? Of the last six opponents Gonzaga has faced, only one has shot below 45% from beyond the arc. Gonzaga could have done better on the perimeter against Wichita St. Instead, our guards were sinking down to double the post, which allowed wide-open looks for the Shockers all night. And, even when we were faced up, I didn't see a whole lot of putting a hand in the shooter's face when he went up (except for the 35 footer that pretty much said "it's over"). Even Hart was guilty of that, which is why I went after him. Hand down, man down.
-When are we going to have a better opportunity than this to advance in the near future? Especially with this sort of talent? We have been, as one person on the GU Boards pointed out, sawing wood for 15 years and continued to do so this season as we marched our way up the polls, much to the dismay of some journalists and many members of the power conferences. We finished the regular season ranked #1, got a one seed in arguably the weakest bracket in the tourney, and all we had to do was beat a 16, 9, and 13 seed and we would have been in the Elite Eight. Now, I know that things happen in college basketball. And I know that the tournament is very different and much tougher than the regular season. However, we could have beaten all those teams. Instead, Gonzaga let down and, in doing so, they lost the respect they had worked so hard for.
Those are the main points to be addressed by the article. The other point is somewhat unwritten past the first couple lines, including the title. (continued...)
Post 2 of 2: Something has to be done in order to keep these sorts of, well, let-downs, from continuing to occur. The perimeter defense, I will admit, has improved dramatically. Like the article pointed out, it wasn't that they "couldn't" guard the three. It was they they DIDN'T. That comes down to preparation and focus, and that right there is pretty much the number one reason Gonzaga got beat. Throughout the season, our SOS had been pointed out to be especially weak. Yea, we went 5-0 (6-0 if you count the Texas scrimmage) against the Big 12. Yea, we went down to the wire against Butler and that game could have gone either way. Yea, we ended up I think 6-2 against teams in the RPI Top 50. Yea, we won 16 games on the road. However, only four times did we face what could have been considered stiff tournament competition. We beat Kansas St, but they improved dramatically over the course of the year. I wish we had gotten to play them again, just to see how we would have fared. We beat OK St at their place for a pretty big win. But, we (still) lost to Butler and got blitzed in the second half at home against the Illini (another game where we got beat by the three, by the way).
Gonzaga can't have these three month lulls from the beginning of the season all the way up until the postseason anymore. The WCC has gotten considerably weaker between this and last year and will only continue to do so now that St Mary's got slapped by the NCAA. We add Pacific, but that won't do much to bring up the level of competition.
My opinion: Gonzaga needs to move to another, more competitive conference. One that isn't dictated by football, either. The best bet is by far the Mountain West. However, I just don't know if that is anywhere on the program's radar. Until then, Gonzaga isn't going to face solid NCAA opponents for three months until Dance Time and that is only going to work against them. That is, unless the coaches and players can get their heads about them to focus up when the time comes. Back to the point of letting the other guy want it more... Gonzaga plays in an especially weak conference, where they can afford to slack a little bit because they know they can beat every team they face without having to try as hard as they would have to in the tournament. You know the term "Practice makes Perfect?" Yea... not a good thing to practice, if you ask me. That's where Few comes in, though. He has to keep the guys wanting it more than the opponent, no matter who it is, and willing to do anything to prove they belong. That's his job as a coach and, so far, he hasn't really done it. It's been years since I've seen a team fight to the bitter end like Wichita St did against us, even when they nearly seemed down and out of it. It was a mentality the early Zag teams embraced. But, I mean, look at it... 15 years, we haven't advanced past the Sweet Sixteen once since the very first year. And, even then, we have only gotten that far four times. The line has to be drawn that this isn't going to cut it anymore. And why should it be?
Gonzaga has been the model of success for mid-major basketball programs ever since that epic rise to prominence. However, ever since then, they have still yet to make a Final Four. VCU and George Mason both have, and Butler has twice. All of them have notably accredited Gonzaga as being their models to build off of. Gonzaga... well, they have simply remained the model. They haven't improved much besides establishing tournament consistency and getting better recruits. The result at the end of the season remains the same with early bow-outs, and that is my biggest issue.
You can remain satisfied with mediocre tournament success, if you wish. However, as fans, I think it's time we stop simply wishing for more and start demanding more...
But, again, everyone is certainly welcome to their own opinion. This is just mine and I decided to put it out there. Nothing wrong with that...
Quick elaboration on the three-point stat from post 1 of 2... *the last six opponents Gonzaga has faced, who has ousted them from the NCAA Tournament*
"I think it's time we stop simply wishing for more and start demanding more..."
My point is, I don't think we're going to demand more from Few or the Zags that they're demanding from themselves.
And I think people need to realize that Few HAS turned down a LOT of good paychecks to stay at Gonzaga. People need to look at the Utes to see what can happen to a smaller school and realize that Gonzaga doesn't necessarily have the resources to recruit great talent as coaches unless they can find other coaches that are willing to make sacrifices. Like the one's Few has made for our program. We may not be able to get anyone of his caliber if he goes.
Yeah, Few and the Zags have things to learn, and we're hoping they learn it. Few hasn't learned it from anywhere else, so he has to learn it at our school if he's going to go the distance. But I think he's at least as determined as any other coach out there, and doing the best he can. If we don't stick by him, it will probably just make things harder for him. And if he leaves, I'm not convinced the program would recover.
All that aside, I'm not sure if it's even reasonable to expect GU can go the distance in the NCAA without sheer determination, grit, and luck while they're in the WCC, as they just don't have the tough competition on a regular enough basis to prepare them for what they're going to see in the Tournament.
But they do need to learn more from their losses against teams where they lost because the other teams played above their level and Gonzaga didn't match them in effort. That happens at times even in the WCC.
Anyway, I'm just rambling now...
peace.
Another point I wanted to make is that I think it's kind of silly to think that any coach that has won the Final Four is going to come to coach at Gonzaga.
With that being the case, we'll need to place our hope in a coach who has to learn how to get there. And we've got one now who's shown he wants to get there at least as bad as we do. So let's do our best to help him get there. We may be hoping in vain while we're in the WCC, but let's see what we can do.
And Tim had a lot of great suggestions for improvement for the Zags, so I hope they pick up on them ;).
GU pretty much every year is not a final 4 team. I always feel that most years that if the Zags can make the sweet 16 that is about as good as they can do. I thought this year that they did have the ability to make the Elite 8 but only because of how poor the rest of the field was. And not because this team was any better than any other GU team.
GU just does not have the elite players or coaches that it takes to make deep runs in the tourny.
You can not compare the players or the staff of this team to any of the other #1 or #2 seeds in this years tourny. And to even try is laughable.
GU is a very good mid major and that is all they will ever be. I wish it were different but it isn't.
The top of the mountain for GU is the sweet 16 like it or not. It's reality check time.
my comments are not directed at any specific person, just the homers....
"And I think people need to realize that Few HAS turned down a LOT of good paychecks to stay at Gonzaga."
Total speculation...but...if it were so...you have to ask yourself, why. Is it because he is a great humanitarian, laboring in love for poor little Gonzaga? He gets a cool mil a year to dominate a crap conference, make it to the tourney and forever live off post game interviews, where he insists this the WCC is tough and "golly SF and LMU give you their best shot" and all the while, the homer fans swallow that crap...and perpetuate the myth that Mark Few stays at GU because he believes in advancing the program.
News flash. He does not. Has it ever occurred to you that he believes he has "arrived" that he has topped out? When a coach calls being #1 something to check off the list instead of saying things like, "we are grateful but we have not done anything yet....We have to go and prove we deserve that in the big dance..." or something as such...there is a problem.
When Andy Katz interviews him about being number one and his response is ...it is kewl but what I really am excited about is fishing season.."
When he says the day he looks forward to the most is opening day...
Look, I am sure he is a nice guy to those he has in his life and I realize he has accomplished some things of note in the WCC. But it is the same mentality and arguments presented by the GU homers of the world that he is dependent upon to keep his cushy job.
They go like this:
"What good coach would come to GU?"
It is a national program with an awesome ESPN TV deal...and like it or not, if you pulled your head out, you would see there are a TON of talented coaches out there that would LOVE LOVE LOVE to come to GU. Stop being a homer for a second and think...what could Randy Bennett do with GU talent and GU budget. And he is IN the WCC. Sanctions or not, his recruiting class for 2013 Destroys GU's
"Mark Few has turned down many big time coaching jobs."
I call bullsh*t. Aside from media hype he has been offered one. Oregon. because he is from there. and it was not a formal offer. The rest has ALL been media hype.
"Players don't want to come to Spokane or a small Jesuit school."
To which I say, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard and is totally unfounded. So kids do want to go to Pullman but not Spokane??? shut up seriously. they will and have come from Canada, Poland, Chicago, Denver,Cali, Texas, Germany, France..that argument is tired and total speculation....IMO a cop-out by the GU homers.
"GU recruits certain, quality type players..."
Yeah sure because if the kid has talent he is automatically some selfish jerk who you don't want on your team....Total crap argument to which I respond "Draymond Green, Delly, Trey Burke, Anthony, Oladipo....and so on and so on. Possessing top tier talent does not automatically make you a jerk, selfish player or any of the other excuses the homers throw out there.
continued...
Here is the best one.
"Mark Few can coach" To which I roll around on the floor and laugh in your general direction. My proof, you need look no further back than their last loss. This great coach and his #1 team / 1# seed was defeated by an inferior team. But why? Because they hit 3's?? seriously, if that is what you think, you should probably pick up a couple books about the game and educate yourself.
GU lost to WSU for the same reason they lost to Ohio State last year and the same reason they lost to Butler and Illinois this year...and the same reason they played a way to close for comfort game with the likes of SF. Game plan and execution. No understanding of who on the other team is going to beat you and how they are going to do it...and worse of all, how in the hell to stop them. Mark Few has never shown the ability to alter his approach to any team with the exception of Delly...his Senior year....after 4 years of seeing him 3 times a year...That does not make you a good coach.
Here is a trend that is probably a fact...though I cannot be sure....Mark Few has NO IDEA how to coach a top tier athlete or a offensive player that lives of creating their own shot.
I submit to you Micah Downs, Austin Day, Jeremy Pargo, and drum roll....Adam Morrison. And don't go telling me Morrison was a result of the coaching staff, unless it was to make every play for him....btw that is not good coaching....*see UCLA sweet 16 game...and quite few close calls that year....
If you don't fit into his little coaching box, you don't play.
Here is a fact you may want to get use to if you are like me and hoping next year...GU will put it all together....Simply put...they won't until the AD makes it clear to MF that while he is grateful for the success...he and his staff must grow and reassess their goals and approach because as a program they have staled, and this most recent breakdown has set the program back, in recruiting, and perception and something has give.
Interesting posts everybody,
I won't ramble on because I might go on forever, so instead I'll just throw another log on the fire. I have wondered if Few didn't/won't go coach at another school because he is a tad too "comfortable" here.
He sort of fell into the Gonzaga job and from what I've read he came out of nowhere (well he WAS sleeping on coach Monson's couch initially) and maybe he, at least subliminally, fears If he went to say, Arizona/Oregon, he might be found out a fraud....and fail?
Is it easier to stay in his comfort zone, where he walks on water, is basically accountable to no one, and nobody pushes for more? I'm sure he'd like to do better than one win a year in the dance but maybe he feels a little too comfy in his gig at Gonzaga.
To those who say we should never expect more than a sweet 16 for various reasons, why not this year? As to not having a high enough level of players....we had good enough players to be #1 in the country, a #1 seed, and the best record in the nation. It wasn't just homers who thought we were good either.
We should have done better this year. No excuses,and I don't want to hear about "upsets happen"... We should have gotten it done.
Maybe it is time for Few to cash out and spend his days at the lake. He inherited a program that was set up for success and has done pretty well. The next potential guy in would be walking into pretty much the same situation. I might like to see if he could take us a little further.
OK, I did end up rambling, sorry, lol.
*One last thing. I read somewhere where Tim was called someone who never played basketball or a non- athlete or some such. I know Tim and there are pictures of him playing ABOVE the RIM in the Spokesman Review...so take that thought out of your pipe and put something else in there to smoke.
GO ZAGS!!~
The list is in the thousands of coaches who didn't win a championship in their first 15 years of coaching. Carnesecca, Smith, McGuire, Massimino, Wooden, Tarkanian, Knight. . .I could go on and on. What if those schools had followed the advice of this columnist?
The list is only one of coaches who have made it to the dance their first 14 years of coaching. And you would fire him? Thankfully this is merely an echo chamber for amateurs.
As for me? I say "Come on Lucy. Tee that ball up again. This time it's different."
Zag_Whisperer, at this point you're just a forum troll. I didn't read anything you said beyond you laughing at Few turning down offers from other colleges. It's been well-documented and there have been numerous newspaper articles about it. If you can't take the 5 minutes to verify your BS criticisms before posting you're not worthy of my time.
I'm with you manix-johnson.
I'm going to challenge people to read the article again and find a point where I said "We need to fire Mark Few."
I guarantee you such a statement never came from me. I said he isn't getting the job done. We have had more than enough to make a deep run in the last fifteen years. Not once have we accomplished it. As of today, 4 other mid-majors following the same model Gonzaga built have reached the Final Four, with teams that weren't as good as some of the ones we have had. As of this year, I am on the verge of saying three of those teams coaches were better than Few. Like I said earlier, Roth needs to sit Few down and tell him to step it up a notch. Mediocrity in the tournament cannot be tolerated anymore...
"Like I said earlier, Roth needs to sit Few down and tell him to step it up a notch."
Tim Mackin, you actually wrote "this stuff isn't going to cut it anymore." "Step it up" and "not cut it anymore" carry different meanings to me. But what did you mean when you wrote it? What stuff are you referring to? Graduation rates? Conference titles? NCAA BIDS? What if we go dancing next year and lose in round two again? Is that not cutting it? And what's the consequence for not cutting it?
I'm with Dr. Seuss. I'm not crying that it's over. I'm thankful that it happened. Some day in the years ahead the Zags program will come back to earth. Until then, I'm loving the ride and hoping like hell we can win it all before we land.
I am a blunt and honest person. If I thought Few should be fired, I would have outright said so. There is no doubt in my mind he is a good coach. He and the rest of his coaching staff have kept this thing going ever since Monson left, which wasn't an easy task at the very beginning of it all. He is a decent recruiter, game-planner, and is actually very solid at making halftime adjustments. Where he falters is that he runs this team like a business (that analogy actually isn't from me, it's from players who have left) and doesn't connect with all of his players on a personal level. He only does that with a select group (unfortunately, other players would dub that "favoritism"). He doesn't like competing with Romar for some of the 5-star recruits in the NW. Granted, Romar tries to sway them with the "Come to UW for a year or two, then you can go make millions," whereas Few is looking more for a three/four-year guy who is team-oriented, but there are 5-stars out there with that sort of mindset. He just doesn't seem to try as hard to compete with the major programs over those players (note: Gonzaga has been in the running for several 5-star recruits who have stayed for at least 3 years at their selected programs, but like the tournament, we just haven't signed them and part of me is curious as to just why that is and why we are settling for 3/4-stars at best as compensation). Also, Few isn't very good at managing/calling his timeouts at the right moments. If one is needed, he'd just as soon rather save it until after the next media timeout. I've picked up on his habit of doing that for years now. And, I'm sorry to say it, but sometimes these sorts of problems cost games. I feel he could step it up and be a great coach, but it just doesn't seem like he makes the effort to do so. Again, it is only an outside perspective.
I do appreciate and respect what the Gonzaga Basketball program has built. They stress excellence on the court and in the classrooms and, sadly, that is a notion that has been lost in the recent years with the rise of the "one-and-done" generation. As for everything else... the conference titles and NCAA bids and all that... take a step back and realize what league we play in, man. Believe me, I spent all freaking season defending Gonzaga Basketball and the notion that going through WCC play just isn't as simple as it may seem to be... but the fact that we squeaked by a 16 seed (regardless of how well they played) and faltered in the next round to a 9 seed (I don't care that they made the Final Four, don't try and tell me we couldn't have played better and handed their rears to them on a silver platter) flat-out proved all my efforts a waste.
Conference play in the WCC is nothing more than three months of lackluster competition between playing a set of OOC opponents who may or may not end up dancing and the real deal with teams foaming at the mouth that they deserve to be there. That has done and will do no more than hurt the Zags come March each and every year as long as they remain in this weak conference and face severely inferior competition on a regular basis.
You can quote Dr. Suess all you want, and I will admit to you that I am a big believer in his philosophies, but the fact remains that this team certainly could have and should have done better and the lackluster results are really starting to raise a lot of questions for me. Next year's success depends largely on whether or not Kelly stays. If he does, they have a solid core to make a deep run (if they cash in). If not, I'm thinking a Sweet Sixteen would be optimistic. It's up to the coaches and players, though, and how bad they want it and how far they are willing to go to prove themselves.
I apologize for that post being so long and rambling. Truth is, it IS 4 AM and I just finished setting up a whole bunch of Easter stuff for my nephew. But, I eat, sleep, drink, breathe, and do nothing but think Gonzaga Basketball. I have as long as I can remember. And, trust me, it does hurt me to have this mindset. But, really, you can look at all the consistency and trips to the NCAA bids and winning percentage and all that...
What I see is "This team had a two seed and bowed out to a ten in the second round;" "This team had a three seed and a steady lead before collapsing against UCLA;" "This team was the #1 team in the nation, a one seed in the bracket with the easiest road they could have imagined to get to the Final Four, and a nine point lead with six minutes remaining over the team that eventually made it to the Final Four." Also, Gonzaga has lost to 3 opponents who have ended up playing for the National Championship (2 have won), 6 opponents who have made it to the Final Four, and 10 opponents who have at the very least made the Elite Eight in the last 15 years.
I know that these sorts of things don't come overnight. Trust me on that. I had to wait until I was a senior in high school until my team just had the chance to make the state basketball tournament. But, even I have to admit, the opportunities have all been there. Our average margins of both victory and defeat barely reach double digits, so it's not like we aren't in it. It just comes down to how bad the players want it, and whether or not the coach has his head about him in tight situations.
All these chances. All these schools making the Final Four that say Gonzaga is the model for a successful mid-major. I'm sorry, guys... but the boys just haven't gotten it done and it's done nothing but turn me into a permanent pessimist until they can prove to me otherwise...
I hear ya Tim.
It can be heart-breaking to want them to take things to the next level so badly and then wonder if it's ever going to happen.
Do we know if Few has what it takes, to take things to the next level? No, we don't. Is he as hungry as past coaches like Wooden that ending up winning a championship after years and years of putting their hat in the ring in the NCAA? Not necessarily, he values family and other aspects of his life also, and I don't fault him for that. He loves basketball, but basketball isn't his only focus in life. And I don't think it should be. Are there unique challenges to being in the WCC that have to be overcome with respect to preparing for the NCAA tournament that other conferences don't need to deal with? Absolutely. Is coach Few great at making in-game adjustments and substitutions? He could use a lot of work there, and I'm hoping he figures it out.
So, no. We don't know how these things are going to play out. But any other coach coming to GU is going to have to face the same challenges while starting from scratch (not suggesting that you're saying Few should be fired, I'm just making the comparison). And any other coach we get would have to prove themselves in the conference as well. And for most coaches it takes a LONG time with conference experience before a championship bid occurs. And those are in conferences where they're able to test their mettle repeatedly against the best teams in the nation.
For me, I'm going to do my best to stick by them and cheer them on. And pray that they'll get hungry enough to make it happen. As hungry as the first team was that took them to the dance. I believe they're doing their best and I want to help them succeed. There's no guarantee they will, as it's uncharted waters. But so was winning the WCC and getting to the NCAA repeatedly. Now they have a new goal and this one is a lot tougher for them.
I'm going to do my best to not lose faith in them anymore than I would want to lose faith in myself for not being able to figure out how to do something I haven't done before. We all run into things in our life that are incredibly hard for us to deal with or achieve. There's no guarantee that any other coach Gonzaga could get is going to go any further than Few, especially not for years and years of time. It could go either way.
I think Few and the Zags want it as bad as any of us. Elias was heart-broken when they got knocked out of it this year. I probably won't be putting them any further than the sweet sixteen in my brackets until they prove themselves. But they're always going to be my team, and I'm going to keep rooting for them to succeed.
Happy Easter.
Well, at least with Wichita State whipping LaSalle, Ohio State and getting to the final 4, it shows that they were a pretty hot team.
For me, it takes a smidge of the edge off. What would help even more is if they were to win it all.
Very doubtful though. I fully expect them to get choked out by Louisville.
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